Dagenais Smiley and Susan Lamb Cook in Conversation with Christian Baldini

On February 17, 2024, I will have the pleasure of collaborating with violinist Dagenais Smiley and cellist Susan Lamb Cook bringing to life together the beautiful Concerto for Violin, Cello and Orchestra by Brahms. This will be in Sacramento with the Camellia Symphony Orchestra. After intermission, we will perform  Bruckner’s 5th Symphony. Here is a conversation we had with Susan and Dagenais, in preparation for our performance.

Christian Baldini: Welcome, Susan and Dagenais, it will be a real treat to do this double concerto with you. Please tell me, what are some of your favorite features about this piece? Why is this such an important piece in the repertoire, and what do you love about it?

Susan Lamb Cook:  I have always been a fan of the music of Brahms and have studied and performed much of his chamber music repertoire, from the wonderful cello sonatas, to his string quartets, quintets, sextets, piano trios, quartets – the list goes on.  So, having the opportunity to perform the Double Concerto is truly a highlight for me, especially with my dear friend and colleague Dagenais Smiley as well as with you, Christian, and the Camellia Symphony Orchestra.  So often, concertos begin with a long orchestral introduction but in this case, Brahms launches immediately into a cello cadenza, similar to the opening of the Elgar Concerto which I had the pleasure of performing with you and the CSO last season.  In Brahms’ opening cadenza, he soon has the violin join in, creating a conversation between the two instruments which gives a preview of what is yet to come.  The Brahms Double is an expansive work containing technical and musical challenges not only for the soloists but for the orchestra as well.  This was Brahms’ final symphonic composition, and one can hear the luscious textures which Brahms is so famous for throughout this monumental work.

Dagenais Smiley: As a violinist, I always love playing the works of Brahms, from the symphonies to the string quartets, and his violin concerto is one of my favorites. He always writes incredible melodies, and intense textures, which is thrilling to perform.  I haven’t had the pleasure of working on the Double Concerto before now and it’s been an incredibly rewarding undertaking.  It’s a unique experience to share a concerto with another instrument, especially the rich voice of the cello, and as Susan already mentioned, it’s like having a conversation with a colleague.  It is technically demanding while still presenting beautiful, soaring melodies.  It’s interesting to note  that it wasn’t immediately a hit upon its presentation, but it has now become a favorite amongst both cellists and violinists.  I am extremely excited to be performing this work with Susan and with you, Christian, and the Camellia Symphony!

Christian: As you know, composers (and especially followers in their circles) had rivalries, and this was also the case between Brahms and Bruckner. Constantin Floros states that “In the last third of the 19th century Brahms and Bruckner were regarded as antipodes.” For different reasons, this was also the case at times with performers. Brahms and the famous violinist Joachim (for whom the Double Concerto was written, together with cellist Hausman) had had a fallout. Brahms offered this concerto as an olive branch to Joachim. In fact Clara Schumann wrote in her diary that after Joachim, Hausmann, and Brahms had tried out the piece for friends, “The Concerto is a work of reconciliation. Joachim and Brahms have spoken to one another again.” - My long related questions to both of you are: What does music mean to you? Is it possible to alter/affect the human spirit through music? Which kind of atmosphere does it communicate, or which kind of spirit inhabits this particular concerto?

Susan:  The world of music, and specifically the cello, has been a part of my life ever since I can remember, so I feel as though the cello is simply an extension of who I am.  My cello and I spend so much time together – in the practice room, in the teaching studio, on the concert stage – that I really can’t imagine my life not being filled with music and the art of music making.  As to whether or not music can possibly affect the human spirit, my answer would be absolutely, yes.  It is interesting how we each seem to be drawn to different styles or genres of music, composers, artists etc., and sometimes we can all listen to the same piece of music but each has a completely different reaction to it.  Our reactions can include joy, excitement, sadness, despair, but the fact is that we react or respond to the way in which the music touches us emotionally.  I do hope that, through our performance of the Brahms Double, we will be able to stimulate reactions from the audience members, perhaps a feeling of excitement from the powerful opening statements of both the first and last movements, as well as a sense of affection and joy from the gloriously optimistic melody of the second movement.  This monumental work leaves me breathless, so I hope it will do the same for our audience members.

Dagenais:  My relationship with my violin and with music is much like a relationship/friendship with a fellow person.  Sometimes it’s filled with joy and humor, sometimes sadness and even a bit of frustration, but it’s always there and as Susan has already stated, I can’t imagine a life without playing music. I had the opportunity to play Mahler 4 recently and during some of the rests, I looked out into the audience and saw how rapt the audience was, and some attendees were even in tears, so yes, I do believe that music has the ability to affect our spirit.  I have favorite pieces I gravitate towards when I’m in a certain mood, as I’m sure we all do, and part of why I love performing (any type of music), is the connection with the audience.  It’s very rewarding to bring the joy, beauty, emotion, sadness, etc. of music to new people.  I’ve talked to some who have never attended a concert before and they were so excited and moved by what the music made them feel.  I look forward to sharing this great piece with the audience and I also look forward to hearing the Bruckner!

Christian: You are both wonderful educators, and colleagues of mine at the University of California, Davis. What are some of your favorite things about working with young people and helping them grow as musicians and human beings?

Susan:  Teaching brings me great joy - I really love working with my UC Davis students as well as my adult and my pre-college students.  Many of my students at UC Davis have chosen fields of study other than music, like animal sciences, engineering, environmental science, etc., but they truly love and value their connection to music through their cello. I am pleased and honored to assist them in becoming better players so that they will have the life-long ability to continue expressing their passion for music through their cello playing.  I continue working with pre-college students through my Rising Stars of Chamber Music Program which takes place each year over the winter holiday.  The students in this program are advanced players who are passionate about chamber music and are totally committed to their music making,  As these students study some of the great works in the chamber music repertoire, I can see them develop as musicians through their understanding of musical lines and phrases, and more importantly, I can see them develop and use tools of cooperation and collaboration while working with their group members, which ultimately allows for wonderful friendships to be formed.  This is one of the greatest benefits of being a musician. 

Dagenais: As Susan mentioned, many of the students we have are majoring in other challenging disciplines yet they want to maintain that connection to music and their instruments.I help them with time management and give them suggestions on how to practice efficiently with limited time and I love seeing the excitement in my students’ eyes when they realize how much progress they’ve made over the quarter.  I am very proud of my students when they are able to master a new technique or play a piece they never thought they would be able to before through their hard work and diligence.  It’s rewarding seeing how important music is to them despite how busy they are in their other fields and I am grateful to have the opportunity to work with them on their musical journey.

Christian: Lastly, what would be your advice for young musicians? We have all felt challenges in life. Most people have thought about quitting, multiple times in many cases. What advice would you give to someone who is struggling with their musical development?

Susan:  There is no doubt that succeeding in music takes a great deal of time, effort, and commitment, and I can certainly remember that, when I was younger, there were periods of time in which I simply wanted to give up.  I was fortunate, though, to have had wonderful teachers along the way, not to mention my parents who were always encouraging me to continue practicing and not be discouraged if things did not always go as I had hoped (in performances, competitions, etc.).  As musicians, we are always putting ourselves on the line, baring our souls to the listener and opening up an often intimate and very personal part of ourselves. Not an easy thing to do.  I always tell my students, though, that every performance is a dress rehearsal for the next performance, with the thought that we are always practicing, doing our best to improve and, of course, always striving for the perfection that we may never achieve.  Some great advice that I received early on was to surround myself with those who were better than me so that I could always continue learning.  This advice has served me well, not only in the area of music. 

Dagenais:  My approach to teaching is to be encouraging, but also realistic and understanding.  One of my students was struggling with the motivation to practice,  so we had a chat about it and I acknowledged that student’s feelings (we’ve all been through that struggle in our life) and gave them some advice on how to move forward. I think it’s important to recognize when something is a struggle and to accept and acknowledge those feelings rather than try to erase them. I try to teach my students to have patience with themselves (something that I struggled with in school). It’s ok to take a day off practice when you’re in a negative head space and return the next day feeling refreshed and excited to begin again. It’s easy to get stuck in the cycle of trying to achieve perfection and the rat race of gigging so much that we can sometimes get frustrated and lose the joy of performing. It’s important to take the time to remember what music means to us. Sometimes it can be a wonderful change to attend a concert rather than performing in one to remember how powerful it can be to experience live music.

Christian: Thank you both very much for your time, and especially for your wonderful musicianship that I will be delighted to share with our audience in Sacramento!

Dagenais Smiley, a Northern California native, earned  her bachelor’s degree from the Oberlin Conservatory  under the direction of Milan Vitek and her master’s of music from the USC’s  Thornton School of Music, studying with Ms. Kathleen Winkler. An active orchestral and chamber musician, Dagenais performs with the Sacramento Philharmonic and Opera, and is currently acting Associate Concertmaster with the Modesto Symphony, often stepping in as Concertmaster. She recently became Assistant Concertmaster of the Reno Philharmonic and also performs with the Stockton Symphony, the Monterey Symphony, the Fresno Philharmonic, and other various Northern California  orchestras. Ms. Smiley currently teaches violin at UC Davis and maintains a private violin studio. She enjoys skiing, hiking and playing Pokemon Go in her spare time.

Susan Lamb Cook is Lecturer in Cello and Chamber Music at the University of California, Davis, and holds degrees from the University of Iowa and the Hochschule für Musik in Vienna, Austria.  She is a member of the Sacramento Philharmonic & Opera and the Sacramento Choral Society and Orchestra and is director of the VITA Academy’s Great Composers Chamber Music Series at the Harris Center in Folsom. Her solo performances include those with the Sacramento Philharmonic, the UC Davis Symphony Orchestra, the Reno Philharmonic, the Cairo Symphony (Egypt), the Paradise Symphony, and the Camellia Symphony.  In Addition, she was featured as soloist in a Gala Concert in the Esterhazy Palace, Eisenstadt (Austria) with the Classical Music Festival Orchestra. As an active performer and educator both nationally and internationally, Susan has completed five concert and teaching tours of China, has performed and given master classes at San Francisco State University, Scripps College, Harvey Mudd College, Marshall University in West Virginia, Austin College in Texas, and Utah Tech University, and her performances have been featured on National Public Radio and Austrian National Television. She has served on faculty at the Saarburg International Music Festival in Germany, the Vianden Festival, Luxembourg, and on the artistic staff for the Classical Music Festival in Eisenstadt, Austria.  As member of the Kismarton Trio, she has performed at the Hungarian National Museum and the Petöfi Museum of Literature in Budapest (Hungary).  Susan performs regularly for the UCD Shinkoskey Noon Concert Series, the Westminster Music At Noon Series, and the Crocker Art Museum’s Classical Concert Series, and her past performances can be found on YouTube at Susan Lamb Cook, Concerts and Conversations, and the UC Davis Music channel.

Bruckner Society President Interviews Christian Baldini

In the first part of this interview, Christian Baldini had the chance of asking Benjamin Korstvedt several questions about his research and Anton Bruckner's music. In this second part of the interview, the roles are reversed, and the musicologist is now the one asking the conductor some questions.

Benjamin Korstvedt: I bet your fans would be interested to hear what you as a conductor find to be most challenging about a Bruckner symphony?   Perhaps more important, what’s most exciting about leading one of his symphonies?

Christian Baldini: As a conductor, encountering a symphony by Anton Bruckner represents many challenges. The sound world is very different from any other composer. This is music that at times seems to come from another universe, so it takes some time getting not only acquainted with it, but also comfortable, as if learning a new language until you speak it fluently. Its extraordinary dimensions and seemingly quirky sonic structures also are a challenge. One has to build and sustain tension, and learn how to release it, through these journeys; one has to navigate through modulations and find a way to arrive somewhere refreshed, without a sense of exhaustion. I think these challenges are precisely what make conducting his music so exciting as well. There is nothing else like it!

BK:  Bruckner’s use of the brass section is one of the most striking elements in the soundscapes of his symphonies.  Do the brass players generally relish the chance to play Bruckner?  What other instruments play distinctive roles?

CB: Yes, of course, Bruckner is a great favorite of most (maybe all) Brass players. You see, many composers restrict the use of certain instruments, where they end up waiting, counting rests, and occasionally come and play for a few bars, to continue waiting until the next distant entrance. Bruckner really builds blocks of sound with the brass, and naturally brass players relish the opportunity to play these wonderful chorales, fanfares, and lyrical lines that he wrote for them. String players also have various distinctive roles, from the (in)famous Bruckner tremolo (with which he stars all of his symphonies!) to the tender, lyrical singing, to the Wagnerian flourishes (for example in the second movement of the 7th) that might be reminiscent of the Tannhäuser Overture. 

BK:  People who love Bruckner were often powerfully struck by his music the first time they heard it, like a thunderbolt!  Did something that happen to you?

CB: I remember my first contact with his music. On a trip to New York with my father, I purchased a double CD set conducted by Eugen Jochum, which included the 8th and 9th symphonies. It was not the usual path (which for most people might be to begin with the 4th), but I immediately fell in love with the bursts of energy, the lyricism, the warmth and the powerful sonorities that his music presented me with. It was so different from all the other composers I had been interested (at that time I was familiar with most of Mahler's Symphonies, and as a student in Buenos Aires I had been also listening to the Ring Cycle. This music was different, directly, from the start. And it captivated me! 

BK:  Do you have a special piece of advice for the audience that will help them appreciate the performance?

CB: More than anything else, I like to let music speak for itself. My advice to someone who comes to Bruckner as a newcomer is to not necessarily try to understand it or label it, or to define it with words. Sometimes the best possible option is to absorb it, feel it, let it sink in. And have patience. In the midst of our hectic contemporary lives, sometimes we deny ourselves the calm moments to read a good book, to go see a theatre company performance, to enjoy the live performance of symphonic music or opera. We have everything at our fingertips right from home, Netflix, Spotify, Google Music and Apple Music, and it is easy to forget how special a live performance can be. Give yourselves the chance to appreciate what human beings in front of you can do for you, with their hearts beating faster and slower depending on how they are performing, breathing with the music, shaping a phrase, becoming more and more involved and committed in the performance. Allow yourself to enjoy the vastness of Bruckner's music, as if you were entering a temple or a palace, whose rooms you were not yet familiar with. I think you will enjoy the various presences that you will encounter in this journey.

Christian Baldini - PC: Lance Zihao Chen

Bruckner Scholar Benjamin Korstvedt in Conversation with Christian Baldini

On February 22, I will be conducting Bruckner's Symphony No. 7 with the Camellia Symphony Orchestra in Sacramento. Below is an exchange that I had with the leading Bruckner scholar Professor Benjamin Korstvedt. For part 2 of this interview (with Prof. Korstvedt interviewing Christian Baldini, reversing roles) click here.

Christian Baldini: Professor Korstvedt, first of all, thank you very much for your time and willingness to share your insight about the music of Anton Bruckner with me and our followers in the Sacramento region. You have written some wonderful program notes for us, and I'll take advantage of this opportunity to ask you a few questions about this man and his music. In your opinion, what is it that makes Bruckner's music so distinctive, and so different from any other composer?

Benjamin Korstvedt:  It is always a pleasure to be able to talk about Bruckner.  His music is so wonderful and truly multifaceted, but not as well-known as it should be.  In a sense, I almost envy folks who will be encountering his music for the first time in concert.  A Bruckner performance is a true experience.  There is so much to discover and enjoy!

To me, perhaps the single most distinctive quality of his symphonies is, simply, how splendid they sound.  Bruckner uses a large orchestra to be sure, but even more important is how he uses it.  He obviously was much attuned to the sonorous qualities of music, a sensibility which must have been informed by his lifelong activity as an organist.  The tonal palette of his music is wide and varied, nowhere more so than in the Seventh.  Listeners will be struck by the range of colors he creates in characterizing and building different sections.  Some passages are massive, to be sure, with full brass supported by the entire orchestra, but others are really subtle with one or two players in the foreground, often in very imaginative settings.

Also, the time-scale of his symphonies is highly distinctive.  They are not short, but despite what the clock seems to say, they do not feel long in the usual sense.  Bruckner has a special sense of time.  In the Adagio in particular, time becomes different, almost meditative, some listeners feel it is cosmic in some way.  It invites you to enter into its pace, which can become a most intense experience, if you accept that invitation.

CB: Please tell us about the dynamics in the music world in this particular time in history. The relationship between Bruckner and Wagner, and those contrasting or opposite figures such as Brahms or Hanslick.

BK:  That’s an important topic.  Music held great importance in Vienna at that time.  The city was very proud of its image as “Musikstadt Wien”—Vienna, the City of Music.  And people really did care about music.  The Viennese music world was quite polarized, though.  There were those who valued a more traditional, classical style; Brahms was the greatest figure on this side.  Others were more committed to the ideals of musical innovation, exploring new styles, forms and realm of expression.  In many ways, Richard Wagner was the figurehead of this.  Bruckner did not fit into this bipolar scheme very easily; he admired Wagner and was certainly innovative in style but was also deeply rooted in Austrian musical traditions as well.  He became identified as symphonic composer of the Wagnerian school, a view he encouraged in certain ways. 

His music was embraced by segments of the Viennese musical world, particularly among younger listeners, but he also had some committed antagonists.  Hanslick, the most influential critic in Vienna, if not Europe, was often harsh in his criticism.  He and Bruckner were also colleagues on the faculty of the University of Vienna and some professional tensions spilled over.   Brahms, who was a friend and ally of Hanslick, was notorious for his disdain for Bruckner.  In private he called him a “poor, deluded fellow” whose “symphonic boa constrictors” were “a swindle” and would be forgotten in a few years.  Clearly, he felt a little bit of resentment, and I suspect jealousy towards him.  Bruckner was more gracious.  He said once, “He is Brahms, and my hat is off to him.  But I like my things better!”

CB: If you had to describe in a few short sentences what makes Bruckner's Symphony No. 7 such a special piece, what would you say? And what would you say to people who claim they don't like Bruckner's music?

BK:  As I mentioned, the Seventh has a very distinctive sound world, as your listeners will immediately hear.  It is also a very lyrical symphony in many passages.  It opens with a wonderfully wide soaring melody sung by the cello section.  There are several stretches of really soulful lyricism from the cellos later too—one of the most remarkable occurs in the middle of the first movement (at the beginning of the development section).  The Adagio is also filled with very beautiful contrasts.  The way that the grave lament of its opening section fades away and suddenly dissolves to reveal a totally different music of lilting beauty in the full string section never fails to move me.

            For those who think they don’t like Bruckner my simple advice is to listen with an open mind (and open ears and open heart, too).   Enjoy the sounds and allow yourself to enter into the symphony’s time zone and soundscapes, even try to breathe with the music as you listen.  Be open to its expressive world.  This music will speak to you if you give it a chance.

CB: With most if not all of Bruckner's works there are multiple editions and versions. You have in fact published the first modern edition of the 1888 version of his Fourth Symphony for the Bruckner Collected Works edition of 2004. Can you explain to people the reasons why his works have been exposed to so many revisions and different versions? Furthermore, could you tell us what your research has shown and what your conclusion is about the use of the percussion, in particular the famous cymbal clash in the 2nd movement (that some editions, including the Haas omit)?

BK: The roots of this situation lie in numerous circumstances.  The starting point was Bruckner’s approach to composition and revision, which involved a good deal of revision before he produced the best possible final version.  In some cases, he actually produced several distinct versions of most of his symphonies.  He left autograph scores of his nine symphonies to the Court Library in Vienna in his will and this bequeathal greatly facilitated access to earlier, unpublished versions of several of his symphonies.  After Bruckner’s death, scholars and editors became fascinated with these unpublished scores and tried to produce new versions that were somehow more authentic than what had been published in Bruckner’s time. These efforts did produce some valuable results and new discoveries but also sowed confusion, especially when some editors became overzealous in their efforts to rediscover the “true Bruckner.”  Haas’s edition of the Seventh is classic example of this.  In a spirit of overidentification with his self-appointed task, Haas became convinced on little evidence that Bruckner did not truly want to include the tympani, cymbal and triangle that sound so dramatically at the climax of the Adagio.  Haas claimed, despite that fact that these parts are written into the score in Bruckner’s hand, that they had been foisted upon him by his students and Arthur Nikisch, the conductor of the first performance.  Numerous complex decisions and judgment are inevitably involved in editing Bruckner, but nowadays very few serious scholars indeed would agree with Haas’s interpretation.  

In many ways the extraordinary attention given to topic of Bruckner versions has not helped Bruckner’s cause.  For many fans it stirs up an air of intrigue that carries its own appeal, often, alas, quite distant from historical facts and even actual musical issues.  And along the way, it can generate feelings of both righteousness and indignation about the “right” and “wrong” versions.  All of this carries the danger of distracting from the actual musical experience of a Bruckner symphony, which should of course be paramount.

Click here to read the second part of this interview, where the musicologist is asking the conductor some questions about Bruckner.

Benjamin Korstvedt graduated summa cum laude from Clark University in 1987 with a B.A. in Music and received his Ph.D. from the University of Pennsylvania in 1995. He joined the Clark faculty in 2002, where he is now Professor of Music.  He has served as Chair of the Department of Visual and Performing Arts and as Program Director for Music. He is also affiliated with the program in Media, Culture and the Arts and German Studies.  Before coming to Clark, Professor Korstvedt taught at the University of St. Thomas, Ball State University, and the University of Iowa.  He has held fellowships with the American Musicological Society, the NEH, the Mannes Institute for Advanced Studies in Music, and the Internationales Forschungszentrum Kulturwissenschaften (International Research Center in Cultural Studies) in Vienna

Professor Korstvedt is the author of a critical study of the musical aesthetics of the German philosopher Ernst Bloch (1885-1977) entitled Listening for Utopia in Ernst Bloch's Musical Philosophy.   The book, which is the first work in English to address this topic, explicates central themes of Bloch's philosophy of music and develops them through essays on works by Wagner, Mozart, Bruckner and Brahms.

Professor Korstvedt is also a leading scholar of the Austrian composer Anton Bruckner (1824-96). His work has explored the complex text-critical issues surrounding Bruckner's works, the reception of his music by critics and scholars in the Third Reich, the place of Bruckner's music in the culture of fin-de-siècle Vienna, and the form and meaning of Bruckner's symphonies. He has published numerous articles on these topics and has presented papers at conferences and symposia in the United States, Canada, England, Germany, Hungary, and Austria.  In 2000, he published a monograph on Bruckner's Eighth Symphony that considers the history, musical design, aesthetic meaning, and performance of that great work.

He published the first modern edition of the 1888 version of Bruckner's Fourth Symphony for the Bruckner Collected Works edition in 2004.   This version of the symphony has been performed internationally in Germany, Japan, the United Kingdom, and Austria, as well as in the U.S.  A video production of a performance by the Cleveland Orchestra, conducted by Franz Welser-Möst in the St. Florian Abbey, Austria has appeared on DVD (Euroarts).  The Minnesota Orchestra gave the score its American premiere and recorded it on CD under the direction of Osmo Vänskä, (BIS SACD 1746) in 2010.

In 2010 Professor Korstvedt was awarded the Julio Kilenyi Medal of Honor in recognition of his achievements in promoting the better understanding and appreciation of the music of Anton Bruckner.

In 2007 Professor Korstvedt was a Senior Fellow as the Internationales Forschungszentrum Kulturwissenschaften (International Research Center in Cultural Studies) in Vienna.  His project there, "Rhetorical excess and the cultural unconscious in Viennese music criticism," explored music criticism as a public discourse in fin-de-siècle Vienna.  Professor Korstvedt is currently President of the Bruckner Society of America.  He also has a long interest in the music of Joseph Haydn and has served as Vice President of the Haydn Society of North America.  His current projects include essays on fraught aspects of bourgeois consciousness as expressed in Schubert's epic mode, in Brahms's revisions of the Trio, op. 8, and in the psycho-social drama of Wagner's Die Meistersinger.